Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)

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DisEnchantment

Golden Member
Mar 3, 2017
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deasd

Senior member
Dec 31, 2013
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Well, at least in my memory, I never saw any Geekbench result reporting frequency very wrongly, even when comes to unreleased hardware, it could still have a pretty good detection.

A very good example is Genoa ES, almost 2 years ago, when people thought Zen4 has close to Zero IPC uplift, Genoa ES showed 17% uplift on GB5 compared to Milan(zen3):

https://browser.geekbench.com/v5/cpu/16798231.gb5 (3.5Ghz detected)

With linear growth to 5.7Ghz the score is suprisingly similar to R9-7950X.


Another example is Ryzen-Z1, which has 2 Zen4 and 4 Zen4C cores:

https://browser.geekbench.com/v6/cpu/6231357.gb6 (4.9Ghz detected)

Zen4 core frequency could be detected and Zen4C frequency is left alone.


Now I wonder what would it means if GB detect StrixPoint as 3.6-4.2Ghz CPU with those leaked score.
 
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DisEnchantment

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Mar 3, 2017
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Yea, this seems like a good take. Family 1Ah frequency reporting was reporting nonsense and it was recently patched for Linux. Hybrid designs are tough.
I will not comment on the how optimistic or not the scores are, but Zen4c/Zen5c is not really a hybrid core as far as the OS is concerned. It is fully ISA equivalent to the non compact core.

Linux can deal with this just fine. There are just CPPC preferred cores for perf/efficiency, that is all. pstate-epp and pstate-epp with guided autonomous mode is built on top of ACPI CPPC2.
And with any CPU scaling driver it will give you the per core stat as well. The Family 1AH fix was for a typo for in the MHz to KHz conversion in amd-pstate because in new version of Linux kernel amd-pstate-epp is the default driver instead of schedutil.
pstate-epp was using new registers found in Zen4 and above.

Linux has been having Energy Aware Scheduling (https://community.arm.com/oss-platforms/w/docs/530/energy-aware-scheduling-eas) since a long while, handling asymmetric arm CPU cores just fine on Android.
 

inquiss

Member
Oct 13, 2010
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Price determines how many cores someone buys compared to absolute specs. If it cost as much to buy a brand new 8c cpu vs a 16c one, a lot of people would indeed prefer core count over a small amount of 1t gain.

This is literally a myth and for 99% of people running multi-core workloads or just trying to multi-task, the already high bandwidth of DDR5 is more than enough.

Its not like we see crazy performance gains with hyper-tuned memory outside of a few workloads. Reducing pressure on memory doesn't do that much. As such we see that customers would much rather buy V-cache CPUs that negate memory bottlenecks instead of spending 3x more than they would otherwise on super fancy ram that might not even be perfectly stable at desired speeds and timings.



Ultra high end ram tuning is even more niche than overclocking CPU/GPU. More cores would give significant gains across many workloads meanwhile ram tuning is basically only good for gaming and very niche and uncommon workloads.
I'm not sure I understand any of these points. Let's go through them and sort of see where we stand.

Yes price impacts what people buy. Do you think AMD could increase core counts to double and still leave costs the same? What do you think 99% of the market for consumer platforms is?

You're saying if you increase ram speed you don't get more performance? I'm not sure how that's relevant? Isn't a more relevant question, what happens if I halve memory bandwidth?

Cache good for gaming? Yep, agree. Not sure what hyper tunes memory is saying. What tasks, that 99% of people do. Need 16 cores?

We're in a tech forum, that already makes us a niche of a niche. Almost all workloads that people do when buying a computer, are browsing the internet and some games. If you do anything else you're already in a niche in a consumer platform.
 
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Mahboi

Senior member
Apr 4, 2024
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It's a vey vocal and very, very tiny minority who wants the increase in core counts on the consumer platform.
I think it's even worse than that, they're not even a tiny minority that "wants it", they're a tiny minority that knows that AMD grew big when they offered more cores for cheap and just stupidly assume that "if they kept doing it they'd win again".
Dividing your total workload in chunks smaller than 6.25% is already done by almost no programs. Including games. Already with 8 cores your ideal breakdown should have your biggest workload be smaller than 12.5% of your total workload, and almost no games manage this. If any at all.

Honestly, I am thinking that at this point, before we get any meaning to extra cores, we'll need a new pattern/language/compiler/profiler that allows automated or greatly simplified threading.
 

inf64

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2011
3,763
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It's wrong.(frequency)





View attachment 100723

The ES code suggests the max clock should be 3.7Ghz? In that case, the scores are similar to the previous GB6 leak.
 
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inquiss

Member
Oct 13, 2010
89
160
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Yeah. It’s just fanobyism. Same thing happened with Intel, people for years said 4 cores is all you need. Then Zen came out and suddenly 8, 12, 16 cores became desired.

After 16 and Zen 2, the only higher core parts are thousands of dollars, nevermind more expensive mobos.

Same thing for higher bandwidth. We’ve been stuck on dual channel forever.

AMD, it turns out, likes to make money just as much as Intel and Nvidia

If you bumped up the core counts and increased the memory channels in the consumer platform, everyone would have to pay a tax for all this wasted capacity. So you segment the platform and pay for what you need.

In the past, when cost scaling was happening in process nodes you could get that. You can't now. Those days are dead.
 
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B-Riz

Golden Member
Feb 15, 2011
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I think it's even worse than that, they're not even a tiny minority that "wants it", they're a tiny minority that knows that AMD grew big when they offered more cores for cheap and just stupidly assume that "if they kept doing it they'd win again".
Dividing your total workload in chunks smaller than 6.25% is already done by almost no programs. Including games. Already with 8 cores your ideal breakdown should have your biggest workload be smaller than 12.5% of your total workload, and almost no games manage this. If any at all.

Honestly, I am thinking that at this point, before we get any meaning to extra cores, we'll need a new pattern/language/compiler/profiler that allows automated or greatly simplified threading.

AMD grew because they offered a better, cheaper product than Intel; it was a huge black eye on Intel that the Zen1 was better (for the money) than their high end desktop chips. (No I do not want to argue the single threaded / gaming vs the Intel desktop chips, yes Intel was better for *pure* gaming, for a few years)

Ryzen 5 1600X vs Intel i7 6800K


Nothing indicates "moar coars we win" mentality on desktop per se, we end users here get consumer chips of an architecture made to scale for high core count server implementation.

As an end user, I am glad they set the standard for "moar coars cheaper" 7 years ago, it was long overdue.

And fancy hardware always comes before the software can truly take advantage of it; AMD came back from the near-dead because they took a huge risk and it paid off.

I'm feeling like the meme "My Brain is Full of F***" following this thread: By all accounts, Zen5 offers more performance per watt than Zen4, but somehow Zen5 is a semi-fail before we have the products in hand?
 
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