Zen APUs made by GloFo, 14nm FinFET node, and packaged by Amkor

[Dresdenboy]

Would there be any capacity constraints for mass market products, i.e. for the interposer, the HBM stacks, and the packaging?

 

[frozentundra123456]

Uh. I'm not sure power will be the problem in this scenario.


28nm 3.5 Ghz CPU XV only needs 65W.

Now a 14nm 3.5 to 4 Ghz CPU with Zen...would need no more than 35 to 45W for the CPU bit...maybe even less (APUs are 4-Cores.)

This means at LEAST 50W of Polaris + HBM goodness(1-2 Gb?).


Of course 960 might be a little high...but I feel like it will very well reach 750 Ti minimum...which would still shrek ANYTHING Intel has to offer at this point.

Of course CPU performance would still be below Intels current and last gen...but that hardly matters...because CPU and GPU performance would actually be VERY balanced out at this point.
I mean take XV, add 40% IPC (best case), run it at 3.5 to 4 Ghz...and throw in a Geforce 750 Ti?

Holy crap you got a winner.

I mean this is just theorycrafting...but if energy efficiency is any better than my guesstimated minimum of 50W for iGPU+Hbm...then even a GTX 960 would be possible, performance wise.


To me that sounds more interesting than their big chips with 16 threads.


IF this holds true I do wonder though...would HBM act as a general L4 cache or would it be used just for the iGPU.

If they go to the expense of putting HBM2 on an APU, it will certainly have to be faster than a 750Ti. 750Ti is at the low end right now for 1080p gaming. It will be at least 1.5 to 2 years before we could expect to see a Zen/HBM apu. By that time, The new generation of dgpus will be on the market, and the bar for dgpu power consumption and performance will have been raised considerably.

In the desktop, I think they would need at least current GTX 950/960 level performance, along with good cpu performance to be anything more than a marginal low end solution like they are now. It can probably be done, but whether it can be done cost effectively remains to be seen. If they did bring out such an apu, it would also run the risk of cannibalizing their own low/mid range dgpu sales, so I think it would be priced relatively expensively.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

I wonder what the latency is for HMC in comparison to ddr4 and HBM.

Worse. HMC puts the memory controller on the memory stack base die, and connects this to the CPU die with a link that has a packet based interface.

The main upsides are much reduced power use, die savings on the CPU part, and the ability to change the internals of the memory as they see fit with no changes to the CPU.

The main cost of this is that they have to introduce the latency of buffering.

 

[Erenhardt]

We already have GDDR5 APUs, like 2 years ago.
Time goes by. Evolution to HBM is inevitable.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Yes, in a special built apu for the consoles. But it hasnt transferred to the pc market. I would actually see this as an indication that HBM could suffer tbe same fate, rather than showing it is going to be widely adopted outside of dgpus and servers.

 

[ShintaiDK]

EDIT:
I wonder what the latency is for HMC in comparison to ddr4 and HBM.

Latency wise HBM is the worst, DDR4 middle and HMC the best. HMC is a very server/compute targeted memory. Also the only one of the 3 using a serial interface.

 

[Tuna-Fish]

Latency wise HBM is the worst, DDR4 middle and HMC the best. HMC is a very server/compute targeted memory. Also the only one of the 3 using a serial interface.

Just... no.

HBM and DDR4 should have practically identical latency. HMC buffers all communication to pass it through that serial interface, meaning it should have slightly higher latency.

 

[JDG1980]

Now we would only need some indication that Zen APUs will actually use HBM(2), which IMO is extremely unlikely in consumer class products at least... Otherwise this is just more made up "news".

There are several types of systems which would substantially benefit from a Zen APU with HBM2. Next-generation consoles are the most obvious, but in addition to that, consider all of the following:

• High-end laptops that currently use dGPUs
• Retina iMac (the 27-inch model is currently available only with a dGPU)
• Small form factor gaming PCs

Keep in mind that an APU with HBM2 can take the place of a CPU, dGPU, and separate RAM for both. OEMs also get the benefit of smaller PCBs with less routing and placing needed. Thus, even if the price is relatively high, it may still be cheaper than the equivalent alternative with separate components, and will still get OEM design wins.

 

[turtile]

I don't see AMD implementing HBM in anything but server and FX APUs in 2017. Maybe we'll see the low end receive it in 2018... It's just way too expensive right now.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Latency wise HBM is the worst, DDR4 middle and HMC the best. HMC is a very server/compute targeted memory. Also the only one of the 3 using a serial interface.

Just... no.

HBM and DDR4 should have practically identical latency. HMC buffers all communication to pass it through that serial interface, meaning it should have slightly higher latency.

I have been reading about it, HMC seems packet based while HBM and ddr4 are more of a direct data transfer with no overhead from serial to parallel and vice versa conversions. So, i would also conclude that because HMC is more of a new memory standard that is packet protocol based with a serial link that HMC would be the slowest of all. But the most easy to expand.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Well, we heard the same expectations when Kaveri came out around the time of the consoles. A projected 1024 shader part with GDDR5 that was going to take over the gaming market. We all know how that turned out.

Perhaps this will materialize, but I have not seen any official statement from AMD that consumer APUs will have HBM. I think it will happen eventually, but it could be much longer than some are predicting here. I mean, HBM is so supply constrained right now that dgpu makers are looking GDDR5x or whatever it is called as an alternative to HBM.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Well, it depends on which company like Sony, Microsoft, Apple , Google will request for a design. Sony and Microsoft would make their game box fan base very happy if backwards compatibility can be maintained with the next gen game console. And they would tap into the pc market with a game console that can also be used with normal (win32 / .net) desktop software. And that is where Microsoft could chivel itself in stone for a loyal userbase for decades to come.
i really hope Microsoft sees this opportunity and is not going the usual Balmer way.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Well MS is trying to do that now with the Windows store and Windows store exclusive games. Personally, I think it is a very dangerous trend.

 

[bhtooefr]

Here's an idea for where HBM (or HBM2) could be used in an APU situation.

Right now, an APU needs dual channel RAM to perform well - the single-channel ones get rather dire performance, and the OEMs are screwing AMD by using it and not offering dual-channel configurations by default.

However, AMD could put a stack of HBM or HBM2 on the package, and set it up as a giant L4 cache, effectively. This would greatly improve performance even in single-channel DDR4 configurations.

And, if AMD could make, say, a 65 W APU with onboard HBM and single-channel DDR4, you could likely replace a 15 W CPU and 55 W GPU and one channel worth of off-package DRAM, and greatly reduce board footprint, which could allow larger cooling solutions and smaller form factors. Or, make that a 45 W APU, and a 15 W CPU and 35 W GPU that gets replaced.

 

[ShintaiDK]

And what would that APU sell for? And why not use the extra cost for dual channel DDR4?

HBM also adds power consumption. Even a single stack may be +5W alone. Then add +W for whatever more the already throttle to hell nightmare APUs would need.

 

[bhtooefr]

Well, there's the board footprint argument, especially with modern thin chassis where a second SODIMM takes up its entire footprint, rather than stacking with the first - if you can have a smaller board and more heatsink, you may well have better performance than a larger board and less heatsink, after all.

And, in the scenario of replacing a 15 watt CPU plus a dGPU, I was under the impression that HBM was more efficient than GDDR5, which the dGPU would be using?

Mind you, that also allows for a GDDR5 L4 cache implementation for an APU, but that would negate some of the board area benefits. (Not all, though.)

 

[ShintaiDK]

SO-DIMMs on laptops is slowly going away tho in favour of soldered.

Efficiency depends how you measure it.

 

[PPB]

And what would that APU sell for? And why not use the extra cost for dual channel DDR4?

HBM also adds power consumption. Even a single stack may be +5W alone. Then add +W for whatever more the already throttle to hell nightmare APUs would need.

If every stack added 5w as your sad attempt of FUD implies, it wouldn't have much of a power consumption advantage over traditional GDDR5 buses in dgpus (128/256b)

Just stop already. You aren't convincing anyone and the agenda behind your posts clearly shows.

 

[ShintaiDK]

GDDR5 power usage depends a lot on the speed. And GDDR5 is fine for Polaris.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Well MS is trying to do that now with the Windows store and Windows store exclusive games. Personally, I think it is a very dangerous trend.

I too agree that the way they do it is not the way.
They want to do it a bit of googles way and a bit Apples way.

It is time Microsoft realizes that they do not need to lock the system down entirely. That they will kill of what made windows great. That there are multiple software distributors. They want to force every one to go through the windows store. That could be okay if they audit the software for security. But logically, no company is going to let another company and especially Microsoft look into their proprietary software algorithms.

 

[MrTeal]

Well, an HBM-based APU could easily provide above 750Ti levels of performance in a high power APU.

Obviously that's a 4790k and not Zen, but that's an entire desktop system under 95W. A 95W APU with HBM could provide excellent performance.

Now, what would such an APU sell for, and who would buy it? I would guess it would need to be priced at least at the levels of Iris Pro, if not more. It would not be anything near a replacement for a 7890k. You might find a buyer in Apple, but it would still be a pretty niche product.

 

[Shehriazad]

If they go to the expense of putting HBM2 on an APU, it will certainly have to be faster than a 750Ti. 750Ti is at the low end right now for 1080p gaming. It will be at least 1.5 to 2 years before we could expect to see a Zen/HBM apu. By that time, The new generation of dgpus will be on the market, and the bar for dgpu power consumption and performance will have been raised considerably.

In the desktop, I think they would need at least current GTX 950/960 level performance, along with good cpu performance to be anything more than a marginal low end solution like they are now. It can probably be done, but whether it can be done cost effectively remains to be seen. If they did bring out such an apu, it would also run the risk of cannibalizing their own low/mid range dgpu sales, so I think it would be priced relatively expensively.

Euhm...doesn't the speed of HBM directly scale with amount? So wouldn't 1 Gig have only like 128gbps and 2 Gig 256gbps. (HBM gen 1)

Respectively that would fit 950 and 960 just right in terms of bandwidth.

P.s. please correct me if I misunderstood how HBM works.

 

[ShintaiDK]

It doesn't scale with amount, it scales with stacks.

 

[DrMrLordX]

Here is food for thought: Sony has announced a Playstation 4.5 with graphics capability intended to drive 4k screens and possibly VR headsets.

Chew on that for a moment.

We can reasonably conclude that such a graphics solution will be GCN-based. What CPU/APU will they use to drive a beast like that? How about Raven Ridge?

Now, why wouldn't that system have something like 8 Gb (or more) of HBM2 as unified system/graphics memory? PS4.0 has 8 Gb shared GDDR5. 4.5 might need more for higher resolutions, regardless of whether it uses GDDR5x or HBM/HBM2

 

[Erenhardt]

Yes, in a special built apu for the consoles. But it hasnt transferred to the pc market. I would actually see this as an indication that HBM could suffer tbe same fate, rather than showing it is going to be widely adopted outside of dgpus and servers.

Integrating GDDR5 memory into the motherboard is more tricky than integrating HBM.
By that I mean to integrate HBM amd needs to do the interposer thing etc.
To integrate GDDR5 they would have to make motherboard manufacturers integrate it into the motherboard.
One thing requires their own engineer work to be done, the other requires each motherboard manufacturer to have their own engineers doing it. Noone is going to do custom motherboards for amd. Consoles were not custom boards for amd platform. AMD APU was just a part of a custom developed unit.